Cancel Debt

Debt continues to drown millions of young people, families, and retirees, especially Black and Brown communities who bear a disproportionate impact. In this episode of Radical Imagination, host Angela Glover Blackwell speaks with Astra Taylor, a filmmaker, activist and the director of the Debt Collective, a membership union who are calling for the cancellation of all types of debt.

Angela Glover Blackwell (00:06):

Welcome to the Radical Imagination podcast, where we dive into the stories and solutions that are fueling change. I'm your host, Angela Glover, Blackwell. Debt is drowning millions of people in this country – working families, retirees, and especially young adults of color who bear the disproportionate burden of student loans. My guest today, Astra Taylor, is the co-director of the Debt Collective – a membership union for people with debt. She is working to build a movement around debt that is both transformative and broadly appealing. Astra, a documentary filmmaker, writer, and activist is bringing people into this movement with very concrete, very popular proposals for the cancellation of all kinds of debt. She's also shining a light on the racist roots of debt in this country. Astra, welcome to Radical Imagination. Astra Taylor (01:00):

Thank you so much for having me. Angela Glover Blackwell (01:03):

Could you give us some historical context on debt in this country? How did we get here? Astra Taylor (01:07):

Something did really change in our economy in the 1970s. That's when economists say that our economy financialized. People talk about neo-liberalism. Really what happened is that instruments of finance and debt became much more central to the global economy around the seventies. You see that's when minimum wage starts really stagnating. And so what happens is access to credit kind of creates this illusion that prosperity is being broadly shared. But really, you know, when you're borrowing, you know, often people aren't able to pay back their debts and, you know, you're paying a lot in interest in fees. So what that did was it actually accelerated inequality. And of course it has racial and gendered dimensions. But if you go back that is much, that is much older than the 1970s. And, uh, you can look at the way the debt has been a tool of social control and racial domination, you know, historically. Astra Taylor (01:58):

So look at the history of red lining, which is basically racial discrimination, especially in the housing market where, uh, Black families were either denied loans entirely or offered them on predatory terms. While white families were subsidized with access to new deal era, you know, government backed mortgages at very reasonable interest rates. So access to credit on fair terms built the white middle class in the United States of America and disenfranchised, you know, economically, uh, Black Americans. Go back before that and you can look at the way the debt was used after emancipation, after the Civil War to bury tenant farmers in these financial obligations that they, they can never get out of the, you know, the game was totally rigged to suppress, uh, Black freedom. So, and it's only one that goes back millennia. So I think there's really, um, you know, debt is, debt is never neutral. It's, uh, it's an economic relationship, but it's also a power relationship and we have to be attuned to that. Angela Glover Blackwell (02:55):

That's a strong statement. From listening to you, I get the impression that this notion of debt is deeply embedded in our society, both currently and historically. Astra Taylor (03:06):

Yes, I think it's very important to understand that in the United States, that that has been this tool of racial domination. The founding fathers were very aware of the power of debt. And so in the colonial era, there are actually all of these debtors revolts. So we remember Shays' rebellion, but it was something that the founding fathers, the men who wrote the constitution were quite worried about. They were worried that if there was too much democratic control (small D democratic control), that debtors would write the rules and they would engage them. James Madison actually called the "wicked project of debt abolition." So we have to remember that, you know, they were very interested in maintaining the rights of white property, owning men like themselves. One person who took a different view, a slightly different view in that circle was Thomas Jefferson. And he had, on the one hand, what seemed like a rather enlightened perspective. Astra Taylor (03:55):

And he said, well, you know, the problem with debt is that, you know, once in a while, it's just unpayable. And so debts that can't be paid should expire. And he said that they should expire over the span of a generation, which he thought was about 19 years. And so he was like, you know, there should be debt cancellation. There should be debt relief because if people can't pay their debts, they should get relief. But that was again, only for men like him– privileged property, owning white men. He wrote a letter to the governor of Indiana in 1803. And he said, 'I've got an idea for you.' And basically his idea was to weaponize debt. Astra Taylor (04:34):

And he said, you know, we should be very happy to see the leaders of the Indigenous community buried in unpayable debts because once they realize they can't pay, what they'll do is they will, they will give us their land. So in other words, let's weaponize debt as a tool to steal Indigenous territory, to dispossess indigenous people. And so this dual consciousness, I think, is really central. It lives on. There's debt relief for elites. We see this in the way that corporations engage in strategic defaults and, uh, you know, bankruptcies, right? Corporate bankruptcies. We see this in private equity where they leverage debt. And so there's, there's lots of debt relief for elites, for rich people and for corporations. But then you see debt as, again, a tool of domination and a way of controlling people in a way of extracting wealth from people that's really troubling. So this double standard was there at the founding of this country and it lives on to this very day. Angela Glover Blackwell (05:29):

Before we start talking about Jubilee and debt relief, do you want to say more about what the impact of the heavy debt is that people are carrying today on their ability to be able to live their lives and move forward? Astra Taylor (05:43):

Yeah, I think we have to talk about both the economic consequences and then the psychological consequences, the emotional consequences. So right now, you know, looking at it from an economic perspective, a growing number of economists and experts, uh, even people who are not very far on the left and you are certainly not an anti-capitalist are saying, you know, this is the debt people have right now is a real problem. Basically, this, all of this debt is actually weighing us down. It's not actually being used productively. So there is research, for example, that says, if we canceled all federal student debt, which is again, $1.8 trillion that ultimately that would boost the economy by, um, a trillion dollars over a decade and create millions of jobs. And the, the it's easy to see why, because all this money right now

that's going to loan, servicers, and ultimately going to the federal government to pay back student loans would be circulating in the economy. Astra Taylor (06:40):

You know, buying goods, people would use it to start businesses, they'd buy homes and start families. But, you know, student loans are holding back a generation from sort of beginning their adult lives. And it's also really hurting senior citizens who are actually one of the fastest growing groups of a student debt, because either they're having to reinvent themselves and, you know, try to have, find to find a new career or they're taking on debt for their offspring. It's also really important to talk about what it would do for people. Again, emotionally, there's a lot of evidence that debt is just a stress on body and mind that it is, that weighs people down. It makes them grind their teeth at night. The more in debt you are, the more likely you are to avoid seeking necessary medical services, because probably you're in debt and you're afraid of having more medical debt. And so that psychological weight, I think is huge. Angela Glover Blackwell (07:33):

What is Jubilee and how is it associated with debt relief? Astra Taylor (07:37):

Hmm, Jubilee, right? I mean, jubilation. So the first thing is there's that joy and that we're Jubilee, Jubilee is an ancient concept, and not just a concept – it's an ancient practice. It is indeed part of a, a biblical tradition. It's a, it's a commandment, the commandment of Jubilee, which is, has to do with the freeing of slaves, the returning of land to people. So it's a periodic erasure of debts, a settling of accounts and, and, and this freedom, right? And that's this, this joy, the joy of Jubilee is in that concept, but it's also something that, that happened periodically in ancient societies. And it would happen periodically as a way to avert social and economic catastrophe. So creditors are getting out of control. They're gaining too much power. People are selling themselves into a debt peonage, uh, you know, or selling their children. And you know, what you do is you have the swiping of the slate and a rebalancing of the power dynamic between creditors and debtors to keep society from collapsing. Astra Taylor (08:50):

Another example, historically of a Jubilee after the civil war, we know it is reconstruction, and that was this, um, you know, attempt to restructure American democracy to finally bring about a multiracial democracy, but it formerly enslaved people called that period, actually, they called it Jubilee. That was, that was the name that formerly enslaved people used for what was what they wanted to have happen after the Civil War, after emancipation. It gives this potency and this pathos to the word, because we know that reconstruction, that Jubilee was cut short, that it was cut short by white supremacists, terror and violence. And that it was cut short again by the kind of debt contracts that we see in sharecropping, right? And I think it brings into focus, the moral question around debt. The Debt Collective – again, the group I organized with – you know, we believe that our moral debt should be paid. And so this brings up the issues of, you know, reparations for slavery. I think it's very interesting that we talk these days, that we're finally having a sort of reckoning around racial justice in the wake of the George Floyd uprisings. And I just want to say the word reckoning means a settling of debts, right? Who owes what to whom and what do we, what do we owe? What do, what does white America, oh, for the fact that Jubilee was, you know, violently sabotaged. And they think there is a debt that needs to be paid. Angela Glover Blackwell (10:14):

Ah, you have a very specific campaign going right now, pushing for the Biden Jubilee 100. Tell us about that. Astra Taylor (10:21):

Here's the basic insight of the Debt Collective that is fueling this new campaign, the Biden Jubilee campaign. Our debts are someone else's assets. When we take out a debt, debt appears as an asset on the bank's books, right? It appears as a future earnings projection for the student loan servicer that you pay every month. And so there's actually a kind of power. Individually, we might feel overwhelmed, we might feel ashamed, we might feel like we're drowning in debt. But if debtors come together, then collectively, they actually have a tremendous amount of economic leverage. Right? And so what we've been doing since 2015 is organizing with student debtors to fight for the cancellation of student loans and the provision of free public college for everyone, uh, which we see as a democratic good and a basic right. So we organize people to commit what we call economic disobedience. Astra Taylor (11:14):

In other words, to go on strike, just like labor unions have to go on strike sometimes, we believe debtors need to get organized and take direct action when it's appropriate. So we figured out all the legal mechanisms that the government actually has to cancel and settle in compromise debts, and our strategy has won over $2.8 billion of debt relief for people who are defrauded by predatory for-profit colleges. Those, those are schools that typically target vulnerable populations; you know, working class, uh, people of color, single mothers, disabled people, et cetera. And we've taught, we basically figured out how the Biden administration can cancel all federal student loan debt. And so the Biden Jubilee strikers are part of a national movement to transform our educational system. Again, the debt isn't the end of itself. It's really asking, well, why should people have to debt finance education when we want an educated population? And this is the richest country in the world! Angela Glover Blackwell (12:09):

Absolutely. And this is such an important campaign that a lot of people can relate to because they understand the burden of student debt. What people often don't think about is medical debt, the debt that is associated with rents and mortgages. And the one that is just coming into sharp relief for many people is incarceration debt. How do you think about each of these separately? And what's the impact they have on people's lives? Astra Taylor (12:33):

Yeah, we have to think of them both separately and together simultaneously because they're all different. And especially if we start thinking strategically, so now I'm putting up my organizer cap, you know, the, the methods we're going to go about getting these debts abolished and winning the sort of bigger transformation we need, right? Like we, we cut off these debts at the source. For example, we cut off medical debt by winning universal healthcare. Uh, you know, in, in Canada, people are not going bankrupt because of medical debt. That's just not a problem people have to deal with their, uh, so strategically there's going to be different legal mechanisms at the local state and national level. And also as you pointed out, winding up in debt for their own incarceration, and that is a really important form of debt, that that is absolutely inhumane and undemocratic. Astra Taylor (13:17):

So, you know, we have people who come out of jail, come out of prison, owing debts that, you know, in a state like Florida, if you can't pay them, if you are a former felon, you can't pay by your debts – which are often new objectively, pretty small – You can be disenfranchised. You can literally lose your right to vote. The system, basically punishes people for being poor. I mean, these are things that we really have to ask, should this be a part of a decent democratic society? And our view is really, you know, that, that that's not the case, especially again, when we look at this enormous double standard where people who are in the top income bracket, or, you know, mega corporations get access to debt relief all the time. When COVID hit last year in March, and there was the first COVID stimulus package, corporations got billions of dollars of debt relief. The government bought them – and the government being us; it was public money – bought the bad debt of Exxon Mobil, of Walmart, you know, of major companies that basically didn't have enough cash on hand, uh, because they'd been pushing out too much money to their shareholders. It goes back to who is punished by debt, who gets taken advantage of, and then who gets to take advantage of the economic system Angela Glover Blackwell (14:36):

Coming up on Radical Imagination, we continue the conversation about a debt-free future with filmmaker writer and activist, Astra Taylor, stay with us more when we come back. Angela Glover Blackwell (15:02):

And we're back. I was going to ask you a question about how debt relief would benefit society, but you've talked about how it would put more money in circulation. You've talked about stress, but one of the things you haven't touched on is the racial wealth gap. Astra Taylor (15:19):

So something like student debt, the people who have the most stern debt and the most burdened are Black women. And why? Well, because Black families lack the intergenerational wealth of white families because of historical processes and the systemic racism of, you know, that that was present. Um, the redlining that I mentioned, right? So, you know, their parents or grandparents were denied the right, the ability to own a home and build that wealth. So the lack of intergenerational wealth then compounds with discriminatory wages on the job. So you're paid less. Black borrowers are also more likely to be contributing to the wellbeing of their family members. And so what this means is that after graduation, um, Black borrowers owe more money than their, uh, they've taken on more loans than their white counterparts, but then it's over time it's harder for them to pay them off. So they tend to wind up with much more debt, you know, five years or 10 years, um, beyond graduation. So canceling student debt in this case, you know, is a very easy way to help narrow the racial wealth gap. It doesn't dissolve it totally, It's just one policy among many that we need, but this is absolutely a racial justice issue. Angela Glover Blackwell (16:28):

How did you get involved in the canceling debt movement and what is the movement exactly calling for? Astra Taylor (16:34):

I got involved because I felt there was something wrong with the way our economy is structured. I had defaulted on my student loans after soon after the 2008 financial crisis, you know, a million people default on their student loans every year. And that was before the pandemic. It will be very worrying to see what the numbers are moving forward. Uh, so I had that personal experience of struggling to pay and then being punished. So what happened was they added to my principals. So suddenly I owed 20%

more than I did the day before, even though I was struggling, my credit score was tanked with all of the consequences that come from having your credit score, be, uh, you know, in the dumpster. So I had this kin d of indignant incense. And I also knew enough of history to know that, you know, the generations before me didn't struggle with student loans in the same way. Astra Taylor (17:20):

So there was something going on. But it was really Occupy Wall Street that enabled me to become part of a movement because that's when I realized that there were so many other people in the same boat. And a group of us sort of formed this initiative that would eventually become the Debt Collective, that would become this union for debtors. So, you know, really what was key for me was finding other people who had similar feeling and a similar analysis. And then us thinking, well, 'hell, you know, so much to do something about this'. And I maybe that someone is us, you know, maybe we're the people we've been waiting for. And so we began organizing then with students who had gone to this enormous predatory for-profit college, [] Corinthian, we launched the nation's for student debt strike, and the rest is history. We've pushed the demand for student debt cancellation from the margins of Occupy Wall Street to the mainstream. Astra Taylor (18:15):

Our demands are for debt abolition, coupled with the policies that people need to survive and thrive. And so we demand the cancellation and student debt coupled with public free repairative education. So we argue an organized for the cancellation of medical debt and universal health care. We're organizing against cash bail specifically in California, we build, we use technology whenever we can. So we have built some groundbreaking debt dispute tools to make it easier for debtors to actually exercise their rights. So we are building a tool that will be launched actually next month, that will dispute bail contracts. These bail companies break the laws left and right. So we think there is about $700 million of bail in California alone, this you know, owed often by the loved ones of people who are incarcerated. So we're going after that, we're going after back rent. And so our demands are, you know, that there's deserve relief. We need to rebalance that power between creditors and debtors Angela Glover Blackwell (19:12):

Astra. Can you imagine a world without debt? Astra Taylor (19:15):

I think for me, I want us to do a kind of moral accounting again, which debts are legitimate, what debts are moral and what debts are immoral and illegitimate, right. So I think debts to predatory lenders should be abolished. I think that's for basic democratic and social necessities, like education, healthcare, even housing. I mean, some places provides beautiful social housing go to Vienna, right? Our houses don't have to be assets that we take out loans for. Um, but I do think there are debts that we do need to pay. So I think reparations for slavery is one. I think climate debt, is it a really interesting concept that's emerging because, uh, and mostly it's, it's an idea held by, you know, by organizers and activists in poor countries for basically saying, you know, rich countries like the United States have burned through more than their fair share of carbon. Astra Taylor (20:08):

And therefore we owe a kind of debt, right? We need to help get on a sustainable path that mitigates climate chaos. So I think there are, there are some debts, you know, I think we, we, we do owe things to

each other, right. We come into a world built by our ancestors and we, I think we owe a debt that we pay forward to future generations. So I really, I do feel that, and, and right now I feel that we're stuck in all of these sort of corrupt exploitative, extractive, economic relationships, and it obscures these ones that would actually bind us together, um, and make us all richer in the end. Angela Glover Blackwell (20:46):

Thank you so much for speaking with us today. Speaker 3 (20:49):

Thank you so much for having me and for all the work you've done. Angela Glover Blackwell (20:57):

Astra Taylor is a documentary filmmaker writer and activist. She is co-director of the Debt Collective, a membership union dedicated to abolishing debt. Angela Glover Blackwell (21:11):

This amazing work on debt is radical imagination in action. It reflects deep understanding of the past in particular, how anti-Black racism through the ages lies at the root of the debt millions face in America today. But the work doesn't stop with awareness, rather it uses knowledge and outrage to do two things simultaneously. Most obviously the work is building a potent broad based movement with specific demands around debt cancellation. A movement that with effective organizing would remove the economic shackles, dragging down an entire generation and unleash vast talent and economic potential. On a deeper level, the work calls upon us to rethink our entire conception of debt. It challenges us to redefine who is owed what as we reckon with the sins of our history, repair the harms and build a just equitable nation. We in our partners at Unfinished invite you to reflect and respond to this question. Can you imagine a world without debt, the legitimacy and morality of which is often in question? Submit your ideas@radicalimagination.us or on social media using #RadicalImagination and #ThisisUnfinished Angela Glover Blackwell (22:45):

Radical imagination was produced by Futuro studios for PolicyLink. The Futuro team includes Marlon Bishop, Andreas Caballero, Ruxandra Guidi, Stephanie Lebow, Jess Alvarenga, and Gabriela Baez. The PolicyLink team includes Glenda Johnson, Rachel Gichinga, Ferchil Ramos, Eugene Chan, Fran Smith, Jacob Goolkasian, and Vanice Dunn. Radical Imagination is supported by Omidyar Network, The David and Lucile Packard Foundation, Pivotal Ventures (a Melinda Gates Company), and Unfinished. Our theme music is composed by Taka Yusuzawa and Alex Sugira. And I'm your host, Angela Glover Blackwell. This is the last episode about third season, but please be on the lookout for more in the next season of Radical imagination. And in the meantime, you can find us online at radicalimagination.us. Remember to subscribe and share.